Diptera.info :: Identification queries :: Diptera (adults)
Who is here? 1 guest(s)
Page 1 of 2: 12
|
 Tachinidae - Ernestia puparum > Panzeria puparum. Ernestia will be synonymized with Panzeria.
|
|
| jorgemotalmeida |
Posted on 27-02-2011 21:30
|
 Member Location: Viseu - PORTUGAL Posts: 9296 Joined: 05.06.06 |
Locality - Silgueiros - Viseu - PORTUGAL Date - 2011. II. 27 Size - 8 mm 
Edited by jorgemotalmeida on 03-03-2011 14:42 |
 |
|
| jorgemotalmeida |
Posted on 27-02-2011 21:36
|
|
Member Location: Viseu - PORTUGAL Posts: 9296 Joined: 05.06.06 |
another...
jorgemotalmeida attached the following image:  [194.19Kb] |
|
|
|
| Zeegers |
Posted on 28-02-2011 19:33
|
|
Member Location: Soest, NL Posts: 19325 Joined: 21.07.04 |
Could we get a dorsal shot, please, wing(s) included ? It is Ernestia no doubt, but we need to consider argentifera Theo |
|
|
|
| jorgemotalmeida |
Posted on 28-02-2011 21:23
|
|
Member Location: Viseu - PORTUGAL Posts: 9296 Joined: 05.06.06 |
another...
jorgemotalmeida attached the following image:  [111.09Kb] Edited by jorgemotalmeida on 28-02-2011 21:46 |
|
|
|
| jorgemotalmeida |
Posted on 28-02-2011 21:23
|
|
Member Location: Viseu - PORTUGAL Posts: 9296 Joined: 05.06.06 |
another...
jorgemotalmeida attached the following image:  [184.96Kb] |
|
|
|
| jorgemotalmeida |
Posted on 28-02-2011 21:55
|
|
Member Location: Viseu - PORTUGAL Posts: 9296 Joined: 05.06.06 |
here one of the reasons I choose Ernestia puparum. shaded r-m vein. I did point so others that could not know the meaning can understand what I'm talking about.  Also there are crossed apical scutellar setae, that is present in puparum and not in argentifera... NOTE: hmm... I knew a few moments ago that Ceretti uses the Panzeria instead of the Ernestia name. It seems that Mesnil refused to use Panzeria [the name is in honour to the famous Panzer --> http://en.wikiped...anz_Panzer] and it remained using the Ernestia genus. But Ceretti (2006) seems to arise the Panzeria name again. Would be this the trend for this genus? Also: http://www.dipter...?Recn=7628 and here Ernestia is told as an invalid name: http://www.dipter...Recn=13592 jorgemotalmeida attached the following image:  [158.95Kb] Edited by jorgemotalmeida on 01-03-2011 02:26 |
|
|
|
| Zeegers |
Posted on 01-03-2011 18:50
|
|
Member Location: Soest, NL Posts: 19325 Joined: 21.07.04 |
Jorge, you are completely right Theo |
|
|
|
| ChrisR |
Posted on 01-03-2011 20:06
|
 Super Administrator Location: Reading, England Posts: 7706 Joined: 12.07.04 |
Yeah, does anyone have an opinion on whether Panzeria should replace Eurithia, Ernestia, Appendicia and Fausta (as it does in the Nearctic)? FaunaEuropaea doesn't use Panzeria but is there a good reason why everyone follows Mesnil's names?
Manager of the UK Species Inventory in the Angela Marmont Centre for UK Biodiversity at the Natural History Museum, London. |
|
|
|
| jorgemotalmeida |
Posted on 01-03-2011 22:28
|
|
Member Location: Viseu - PORTUGAL Posts: 9296 Joined: 05.06.06 |
yeah. http://www.uoguel...s/TT09.pdf, page 3, left column, fourth paragraph (link gently suggested by Tschorsnig) Tschorsnig wrote me a few moments ago on the names telling "I could well imagine that Mesnil's reason to decide for Ernestia, is that Ernestia Robineau-Desvoidy 1830:60 has "page priority" over Panzeria Robineau-Desvoidy 1830:68." Tschorsnig prefers to use Ernestia as he points out that "is used as valid in the relevant catalogues of Herting 1984 and Herting & Dely-Draskovits 1993." Edited by jorgemotalmeida on 01-03-2011 22:44 |
|
|
|
| ChrisR |
Posted on 01-03-2011 23:01
|
|
Super Administrator Location: Reading, England Posts: 7706 Joined: 12.07.04 |
This all seems to hang on whether you consider them to be valid separate genera (as RD did in 1860) or whether you prefer to lump them together under Panzeria (as RD did in 1863). The Americans seem to follow Monty Wood's decision to acknowledge RD's synonomising under Panzeria ... but over here Mesnil (a man who liked to have plenty of genera) preferred to split them up into Eurithia, Ernestia, Appendicia & Fausta. To be honest I am not convinced of its necessity and it creates confusion when studying nearctic and palearctic material 
Edited by ChrisR on 01-03-2011 23:02 Manager of the UK Species Inventory in the Angela Marmont Centre for UK Biodiversity at the Natural History Museum, London. |
|
|
|
| jorgemotalmeida |
Posted on 01-03-2011 23:06
|
|
Member Location: Viseu - PORTUGAL Posts: 9296 Joined: 05.06.06 |
Ceretti seems follow now the Panzeria name. Maybe in the next FE update it will be taken in account? Besides, for the same flies (Ernestia here in Palearctic and Panzeria in Neartic) why not choosing the same name? Also Robineau-Desvoidy wanted to synomyze Ernestia with Panzeria... Interesting to see which will be the fate of the genus name for this interesting case. Edited by jorgemotalmeida on 01-03-2011 23:07 |
|
|
|
| jorgemotalmeida |
Posted on 03-03-2011 14:41
|
|
Member Location: Viseu - PORTUGAL Posts: 9296 Joined: 05.06.06 |
Well, it seems that Ernestia will be synonymized with Panzeria. Joachim, Ceretti and now Tschorsnig credits finally the right name for this tachinid > Panzeria. So, soon all Ernestia names in the Tachinidae gallery should be changed to this. Soon FE will be updated this status but it is not clear when.. Expressed by Tschorsnig > "Use Panzeria instead of Ernestia (I have just seen that Joachim Ziegler uses Panzeria too - and a splitted use in the Palearctic would make no sense). I will also use Panzeria from now on (but I currently do not know when FaunaEuropaea will be actualized)." Edited by jorgemotalmeida on 03-03-2011 18:07 |
|
|
|
| Zeegers |
Posted on 03-03-2011 17:07
|
|
Member Location: Soest, NL Posts: 19325 Joined: 21.07.04 |
Ernestia and Panzeria are already synonymous according to most, if not all, authors. The question you raise is whether Ernestia or Panzeria is the valid name. I'm very curious to the arguments for Panzeria. It seems that Ernestia (R.D 1830: pag 60) antecedents Panzeria (RD 1830: pag 68), but I will check that. If correct, Ernestia must have preference based on anciennity. Theo |
|
|
|
| jorgemotalmeida |
Posted on 03-03-2011 18:16
|
|
Member Location: Viseu - PORTUGAL Posts: 9296 Joined: 05.06.06 |
well, not all authors had synomyzed the name. If we consult FE it is not synomyzed: http://www.faunae...?id=144788 Nevertheless, I had an idea that the in the era pre-Mesnil it was used Panzeria instead of Ernestia. Mesnil then changed it to Ernestia, because it seems that he refused to call the tachinid as Panzeria.. (remembering to him the Nazis in the war..) or for another obscure reason. Edited by jorgemotalmeida on 03-03-2011 18:42 |
|
|
|
| ChrisR |
Posted on 03-03-2011 18:31
|
|
Super Administrator Location: Reading, England Posts: 7706 Joined: 12.07.04 |
My understanding is that R-D created the names Ernestia (rudis) and Panzeria in that sequence in 1860 so page preference would normally put Ernestia as the valid name. But in 1863 he revised his opinions and placed E.rudis into Panzeria, which brought into play the principle of "first reviser", which I understand has priority over the 1860 names. In the US Monty Wood worked this out and they have been using the name Panzeria ever since but over here Mesnil was dead against using Panzeria for some reason known best to him and we have followed Mesnil's naming ever since. Cerretti appears to have followed Monty Wood's lead and so has Ziegler so Peter decided to adopt Panzeria too. As to the other genera (Eurithia, Appendicia & Fausta), the jury is still very out as to whether they should be lumped with Panzeria and Peter Tschorsnig says that he will wait until there is a complete and thorough revision before moving those. Manager of the UK Species Inventory in the Angela Marmont Centre for UK Biodiversity at the Natural History Museum, London. |
|
|
|
| jorgemotalmeida |
Posted on 03-03-2011 19:56
|
|
Member Location: Viseu - PORTUGAL Posts: 9296 Joined: 05.06.06 |
R.D. 1863: 144-146 http://www.archiv...4/mode/2up and http://www.archiv...6/mode/2up |
|
|
|
| Zeegers |
Posted on 03-03-2011 20:42
|
|
Member Location: Soest, NL Posts: 19325 Joined: 21.07.04 |
To Jorge You are misreading faunaeuro.org. It says 'no synonyms present in database' Panzeria is simply not present at all in the database. So that means nothing. 'another obscure reason' ? It is simply anciennity . Theo |
|
|
|
| ChrisR |
Posted on 03-03-2011 20:47
|
|
Super Administrator Location: Reading, England Posts: 7706 Joined: 12.07.04 |
Yes, I think that maintaining a database like FaunaEuropaea is just a huge task so it isn't surprising that things like synonyms are missing.
Manager of the UK Species Inventory in the Angela Marmont Centre for UK Biodiversity at the Natural History Museum, London. |
|
|
|
| Zeegers |
Posted on 03-03-2011 20:50
|
|
Member Location: Soest, NL Posts: 19325 Joined: 21.07.04 |
To Chris I get lost at your RD 1860. Both Ernestia and Panzeria date back to 1830. and if these are valid (with clear type species), they stay valid. If RD 1983 revised his opinion and added 'rudis' (as rudis really or as microcera ?) to Panzeria, this would imply that he considered the genera Ernestia and Panzeria as synonym. That cannot change the fact that the name Panzeria should have priority simply because it is older. Ironical, by the way, that me who has been critized for not following the Code, now insists in following the Code. Anyway, there must be more to this than mentioned above. Based on the material present so far, Ernestia has priority, I cannot see it any other way. Theo |
|
|
|
| jorgemotalmeida |
Posted on 03-03-2011 20:51
|
|
Member Location: Viseu - PORTUGAL Posts: 9296 Joined: 05.06.06 |
you are right, Theo! But what do you tjhink about the Panzeria/Ernestia? Will you keep the Ernestia name? Thanks. |
|
|
|
Page 1 of 2: 12
| Jump to Forum: |