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Tachinidae in Mesnil
#1 Print Post
Posted on 18-07-2008 20:35
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Location: Bruxelles
Posts: 43
Joined: 05.03.07

Hello all,

I'm interested by Tachinidae and know that there are valuable informations in Mesnil 44-75, larvaevorinae in Lindner, Die fliegen der pala?rktischen region, Teil 64f, thouth this work was not completed

Teil 64g is separeted in three volumes: band X1: Salmaciini; band x2: Phorocerini; band x3: Larvaevorinae

All of these three volumes are about Tachinidae? I've never heard about Salmaciini as a subfamily of Tachinidae. Frown

Thank you in advance for your help!

Liekele Sijstermans
#2 Print Post
Posted on 18-07-2008 21:43

Location: Geldermalsen Netherlands
Posts: 305
Joined: 16.04.05

Keys of Mesnil in Lindner are usefull if you want to study Tachinidae outside north western of central europe. These books are expensive, difficult to use, out-dated and not complete (Dexiinae and Phasiinae are not included in mentioned volumes, though started in seperate uncompleted volumes).

Salmaciini is old name for Gonia s.l..

For central Europe the key of Tschorsnig & Herting (Die Raupenfliegen Mitteleuropas, 1994) is most usefull, not expensive, nearly up-to-date and complete.

Matt Smith
#3 Print Post
Posted on 18-07-2008 23:39

Location: UK
Posts: 28
Joined: 13.07.04

Liekele Sijstermans wrote:
For central Europe the key of Tschorsnig & Herting (Die Raupenfliegen Mitteleuropas, 1994) is most usefull, not expensive, nearly up-to-date and complete.

The English version of this key can be downloaded from http://tachinidae...nloads.php

Edited by Matt Smith on 18-07-2008 23:40
#4 Print Post
Posted on 19-07-2008 17:42
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Location: Bruxelles
Posts: 43
Joined: 05.03.07

Thanks for your answers. I already have Tschornig's key. I agree. It's very clear. I also agree with your opinion about volumes of dfdpr: They are VERY expensive. Sad
#5 Print Post
Posted on 21-07-2008 19:23
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Location: Bruxelles
Posts: 43
Joined: 05.03.07

Hello all,

Let me reintroduce this thread. When I said that I thought that there is valuable informations in Mesnil I meant that species are described at leight so that it can help you to secure a determination, even if you restrict yourself to north west Europe.

Is it the case?

Thank you in advance for your help! Smile
#6 Print Post
Posted on 21-07-2008 19:35

Location: Soest, NL
Posts: 18451
Joined: 21.07.04

For Belgium, there is really no need to buy Mesnil.
So I'm not sure what more you want to know.

Moreover, the Phasiinae and Dexiini are missing in Mesnil, present in Tschorsnig and Herting.

Only when you move to Bordeaux or the Alps, you'll need Mesnil.

#7 Print Post
Posted on 22-07-2008 20:32
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Location: Reading, England
Posts: 7699
Joined: 12.07.04

I'd love a copy of Mesnil for studying the wider Palaearctic but it is too expensive for me so I haven't even seen a copy Sad

Tschorsnig & Herting is a very good key for central & northern Europe (the main reason we spent a year translating it Wink) but tachinids can be tricky for novices because the keys give you a name, but it can be hard to know if you ended up in the right place because there is often no single feature that is very distinctive about tachinid genera or species - it is always an accumulation of features that gives you the identification.

Unfortunately there isn't an easy answer, except to post photos here for experts to confirm; to take them to show an expert; or to find a local collection that you can go and look at. Also, I have put photos on the http://tachinidae... of as many UK tachinids as I could find so that might help you confirm your identifications Smile

Chris R.
Edited by ChrisR on 22-07-2008 20:34
#8 Print Post
Posted on 24-07-2008 20:05
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Location: Bruxelles
Posts: 43
Joined: 05.03.07

Thank you Chris. Here's what I'm looking for: to be certain of my results. I would like to be certain because the Belgian Institute of Natural Sciences gave me all his undetermined Tachinid material. But I'm rather a beginner!! With Tschorsnig's key I feel confident with genera but not with species. The best way to be certain would be to have a complete description of all Tachinid species. I guess that this ideal situation is not reachable. That's why I wanted to know more about Mesnil's work. Not to buy a copy but perhaps to make a photocopy of it!!! Grin
#9 Print Post
Posted on 26-09-2009 23:25

Location: Valencia (spain)
Posts: 816
Joined: 02.09.05

Hello, I bought the "Salmaciini" book and itīs a real chaos for me, not just because itīs out-dated (Iīm beginning to find that as normal in a book) and Iīm not quite sure about which species have I got keyed there, but also it arrived without species index!! (just the general one with tribes), and thatīs really awful!. All the Lindnerīs book Iīve bought by now have a species index at the end of the book before the plates, but it simply jumps from Spallanzania multisetosaīs description to the plates, does anybody know if I can find that index? The book becomes almost useless without it to me (due to itīs out-dated)
Thanks anyway
#10 Print Post
Posted on 27-09-2009 08:56
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Location: Reading, England
Posts: 7699
Joined: 12.07.04

I am guessing that the index is in the last "Larvaevorinae" volume in the series (64g. Larvaevorinae - Larvavorini (Tachinini)). I don't have a copy here (still) but that would be my guess why it doesn't have an index in your volume.

I have a scan of the original French manuscript, which is better than nothing - but (with so many margin corrections, no index or figures and missing/duplicated pages) only *just* better than nothing! Wink

I believe that anyone who scans and translates the published Die Fliegen tachinid volumes will be doing tachinid studies a very great favour. As Theo said, there is no reason to have it in northern Europe but as you move south and east you need it's coverage for the extra species. It is out of date (after 20-30 years anything is out of date) but it is the foundation of palearctic tachinid identification and onto this you can apply the latest updated revisions of different genera, such as the recent Phasia one.

Di-dier: this is always a problem with tachinids - you have a name but little confidence because they have so few really distinguishing features that prove you got it right. The authors of these keys all had access to huge collections that they used to compare with new material but for us novices it can be very hard.

I would just recommend that you double-check anything doubtful and trust your skills. Check that your specimen looks roughly like the named photos in the gallery and whenever possible show your specimens to experts like Theo and/or take them to a good national collection where possible. I would be happy to look at anything that you find doubtful if nobody else can help Smile
Edited by ChrisR on 27-09-2009 09:05
Manager of the UK Species Inventory in the Angela Marmont Centre for UK Biodiversity at the Natural History Museum, London.
#11 Print Post
Posted on 27-09-2009 17:06

Location: Valencia (spain)
Posts: 816
Joined: 02.09.05

Smile Iīve foundt phorocerini (86e), and larvaevorini (229e), it seems itīs this last one Sad, so itīll wait

Thanks again Smile
#12 Print Post
Posted on 27-09-2009 17:11
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Location: Reading, England
Posts: 7699
Joined: 12.07.04

Yes, I'm afraid it is the same old story ... there are a few people who could (and would love to) complete or update the keys but they are all too busy with other things - usually non-entomological Sad
Manager of the UK Species Inventory in the Angela Marmont Centre for UK Biodiversity at the Natural History Museum, London.
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