Thread subject: Diptera.info :: Muscidae: Phaonia incana ? => Helina evecta (male)

Posted by skrylten on 31-07-2019 14:19
#1

Degeberga, Sweden, 2019-07-28

Edited by skrylten on 22-08-2019 11:05

Posted by skrylten on 31-07-2019 14:20
#2

dorsal

Posted by skrylten on 31-07-2019 14:20
#3

head

Posted by skrylten on 31-07-2019 14:21
#4

Foretibia

Posted by skrylten on 31-07-2019 14:21
#5

Mid tibia

Posted by skrylten on 31-07-2019 14:22
#6

hind leg

Posted by skrylten on 21-08-2019 19:23
#7

More images to maybe get an ID.

Abdomen.

Posted by skrylten on 21-08-2019 19:24
#8

sternites

Posted by skrylten on 21-08-2019 19:25
#9

prealar

Posted by skrylten on 21-08-2019 19:26
#10

scutellum

Posted by skrylten on 21-08-2019 19:27
#11

meron

Posted by skrylten on 21-08-2019 19:28
#12

wingbase ventral

Posted by skrylten on 21-08-2019 19:29
#13

wingbase dorsal

Posted by skrylten on 21-08-2019 19:29
#14

hind femur anterior view

Posted by skrylten on 21-08-2019 19:30
#15

hind femur posterior view

Posted by skrylten on 21-08-2019 19:31
#16

hind tibia dorsal view

Posted by nielsyese on 21-08-2019 20:28
#17

Hi Skrylten, when I catch one like this in the Netherlands, I would check Helina evecta first. It doesn't seem to have the 'Phaonia pd' on the hind tibia.

Posted by Nikita Vikhrev on 22-08-2019 10:36
#18

It looks too plump, but I agree with Niels-Jan that all other possibilities could be excluded: meron hairy; pd on t3 absent; scutellum hairy on underside.
Skrylten, what a excelent series of images!

Posted by skrylten on 22-08-2019 11:03
#19

Revisited the keys and you are both absolutely correct.

I have problems with evecta/annosa in the key but the number of av setae on hindtibia would make it H. evecta as you say.

Thanks to both of you and for the nice comment on the images Nikita !

I am "nerdy" enough to enjoy documenting the differences to ID the flies B):D

Edited by skrylten on 22-08-2019 11:04

Posted by Nikita Vikhrev on 22-08-2019 11:09
#20

Conserning evecta/annosa: I suspect that annosa is a synonym of evecta: there are a lot of intermediate specimens.

Posted by skrylten on 22-08-2019 18:31
#21

I found a, for me, new feature to separate them in this Chinese paper https://www.tandf...014.954019.

They talk about "two subgroups according to whether the centre of the scutellum
ventrally is with hairs or without hairs, namely the Helina annosa-subgroup and
the Helina evecta-subgroup."

Posted by Nikita Vikhrev on 22-08-2019 19:39
#22

I found no reliable differences, well may be I searched badly. Hennig found only minor differences using presently in Gregor et al. (2003) key. So did D'Assis Fonseca. So did Adrian Pont. So did several other Muscid experts. But Dr. Xue and his postgraduate student found 41 (!!!) new species. You believe it? Me - not. I think that it is shameful that Journal of Natural History pubishes such paper...

Posted by skrylten on 22-08-2019 19:56
#23

Good to know for an amateur like me.
Thanks again for your inout Nikita !

/Leif K

Posted by johnes81 on 22-08-2019 20:24
#24

interesting conversation. I apologize for interrupting but i wanted to add support for Nikita.
I looked at the Chinese document and i have to say that my specimen does not have hairs beneath and in the center of the scutellum. I consider my specimen to be Helina evecta without doubts. image attached.

Best wishes,
John

Edited by johnes81 on 22-08-2019 20:25

Posted by skrylten on 22-08-2019 20:52
#25

No worries John.
I agree its an interesting discussion :)

What about DNA analysis ?
Doesnt this paper https://cyberleni...027/viewer figure 2 indicate that they are separate species ?

Posted by johnes81 on 22-08-2019 21:51
#26

I am not a Biochemist and i use a third party for dna sequencing. I fully intend to enter this arena in the future. But my opinion regarding dna sequencing carries no weight.

However, i believe that this document indicates little or no difference between the two. I consider this to mean that annosa is an intraspecific variation but i could be wrong.

Perhaps a biochemist will weigh-in on the matter.
I do want to enter this field. I'd like to do my own dna sequencing because it is expensive to have a third party do it for me.

Best wishes,
John

Posted by Nikita Vikhrev on 22-08-2019 22:54
#27

Once I sent to Jade Savage a Siberian specimen of Lispe uliginosa for this research. This is interesting work, but Jade and coauthors made very few conclusions (and it confirms that authors are careful (as they have to be)). The only strict conclusion is that Thricops spiniger is most probably a synonym of Th. septentrionalis. (Jade revised World fauna of Thricops, so she is a person whose point of view on this genus we can trust.) Also NA Phaonia luteva is probably differs from PA Ph. errans. Of course, it is very preliminary conclusions.