Diptera.info :: Family forums :: Asilidae Forum
Who is here? 1 guest(s)
 Tolmerus cingulatus, not Neoitamus
|
|
| Sundew |
Posted on 15-07-2014 18:12
|
 Member Location: Berlin and Baden-Württemberg, Germany Posts: 3890 Joined: 28.07.07 |
Hi, This female robberfly I saw recently on a house wall. As the ovipositor is rather long and shiny, I suppose an unidentifiable Neoitamus, though the legs seem peculiarly coloured. Help is appreciated! Thanks, Sundew Sundew attached the following image:  [184.68Kb] Edited by Sundew on 17-07-2014 17:19 |
|
|
|
| ValerioW |
Posted on 15-07-2014 22:20
|
 Member Location: Padova - Italy Posts: 982 Joined: 01.06.12 |
No. Neoitamus is the wrong genus. For me is a female of the Machimus complex
Edited by ValerioW on 15-07-2014 22:21 |
|
|
|
| ValerioW |
Posted on 16-07-2014 12:07
|
|
Member Location: Padova - Italy Posts: 982 Joined: 01.06.12 |
I see the title has changed with addition of "Machimus"...but still keeps the wrong genus Neoitamus  |
|
|
|
| Quaedfliegh |
Posted on 16-07-2014 22:53
|
 Member Location: Tilburg Netherlands Posts: 2198 Joined: 18.05.10 |
Tolmerus cingulatus
Greetings, Reinoud Field guide to the robber flies of the Netherlands and Belgium: https://www.jeugdbondsuitgeverij.nl/product/field-guide-to-the-robberflies-of-the-netherlands-and-belgium/ https://www.nev.nl/diptera/ |
 |
|
| Sundew |
Posted on 17-07-2014 17:25
|
|
Member Location: Berlin and Baden-Württemberg, Germany Posts: 3890 Joined: 28.07.07 |
So neither Machimus nor Neoitamus  ! We really should more exercise to discriminate between the genera. Tolmerus is quite frequently met, and poor Reinoud has to repeat the same again and again - many thanks for his patience! |
|
|
|
| ValerioW |
Posted on 17-07-2014 17:57
|
|
Member Location: Padova - Italy Posts: 982 Joined: 01.06.12 |
Sundew wrote: So neither Machimus nor Neoitamus ! We really should more exercise to discriminate between the genera. I never told it was Machimus , I said Machimus complex: , and indeed it is in Machimus complex. Anyways I find this complex not so easy...but quite COMPLEX
Edited by ValerioW on 17-07-2014 18:04 |
|
|
|
| Sundew |
Posted on 17-07-2014 20:31
|
|
Member Location: Berlin and Baden-Württemberg, Germany Posts: 3890 Joined: 28.07.07 |
I see - sometimes Tolmerus and Machimus are treated as congeneric. I am adapted to botanical terminology: a "complex" comprises closely related (micro)species of the same genus, so when you said "Machimus complex" to me it was clear that the fly belonged to genus Machimus in any case, while Tolmerus is a different genus. However, systematics of these genera has obviously not been settled to date, as the paper by Dikow (2009) underlines (http://www.tdvia...._2009b.pdf). The Asilidae Atlas by Geller-Grimm (http://www.robbe...himus.html) speaks of the "Machimus-group" - ok, "group" or "complex" might be used synonymously  .Anyhow, now I know that it is no Neoitamus: the ovipositor is too short, and the long and sharply bent postocular bristles are lacking  .
Edited by Sundew on 17-07-2014 20:55 |
|
|
|
| Quaedfliegh |
Posted on 17-07-2014 20:52
|
|
Member Location: Tilburg Netherlands Posts: 2198 Joined: 18.05.10 |
: ) n the Netherlands and in the UK the species is referred to as Machimus cingulatus. For quite some time it was known as Epitriptus cingulatus. I think research has revealed that ao things the female spermathecal resevoir in Tolmerus is shaped differently. The differences between Machimus, Neoepitriptus and Tolmerus are near to impossible to distinguish externally. Hence Valerio's "Machimus group". I've got to check literature on this subject again >Lehr, Dikow, Engel and probably others.
Greetings, Reinoud Field guide to the robber flies of the Netherlands and Belgium: https://www.jeugdbondsuitgeverij.nl/product/field-guide-to-the-robberflies-of-the-netherlands-and-belgium/ https://www.nev.nl/diptera/ |
|
|
|
| Sundew |
Posted on 17-07-2014 21:08
|
|
Member Location: Berlin and Baden-Württemberg, Germany Posts: 3890 Joined: 28.07.07 |
Tolmerus and Machimus are both genera by Loew (1849) - how did he discriminate between them  ? Molecular data may shed light on phylogenetics but will not be helpful in identifying photographs! So I am afraid we cannot learn too much and are furthermore dependent on experts' advice...
Edited by Sundew on 17-07-2014 21:09 |
|
|
|
| ValerioW |
Posted on 17-07-2014 22:38
|
|
Member Location: Padova - Italy Posts: 982 Joined: 01.06.12 |
Bächli & Weinberg talk about "Machimus-Komplex", and from my knowledge Machimus and Tolmerus genera are not differentiated as genuses themselves using macroscopic morphology, but are simply identified in the same complex as species. Same thing happens to Eutolmus. So the thing is really hard. It's not like I call a red mountain-bike with blue wheels "Machimus ruber", and a a black BMX bike with blue wheels "Tolmerus niger", ignoring if these two are different bikes "genera" as first step; these species share much more in their morphology than those 2 bikes. I guess that if there will be effective studies about asilids there will be big changes in taxonomy and strong revisions... I wonder if this day will ever come |
|
|
|
| Quaedfliegh |
Posted on 18-07-2014 21:39
|
|
Member Location: Tilburg Netherlands Posts: 2198 Joined: 18.05.10 |
On Loew, I'm cutting a few corners here but in short.....Loew introduced "groups" based on exteral characters of males in particular (total machimus group probaby based on shape of female ovipositor). Machimus > males have a protrusion on the hind margin of the eighth sternite. Like the kite tail of M. atricapillus. Epitriptus > No protrusion, lighter coloured creatures with light colored tibia with little black markings and femora with red stripes. Legs with tiny hairs that give them a dull look. Tolmerus > No protrusion, darker coloured animals with more or less shiny and darker legs with less red markings . Since then a lot has changed, maybe this will be continued. I will start in Lehr now who eliminated Epitriptus and introduced Neoepitriptus ao things. Asilus atricapillus > Machimus atricapillus > Tolmerus atricapillus. and so on. Greetings, Reinoud Field guide to the robber flies of the Netherlands and Belgium: https://www.jeugdbondsuitgeverij.nl/product/field-guide-to-the-robberflies-of-the-netherlands-and-belgium/ https://www.nev.nl/diptera/ |
|
|
|
| ValerioW |
Posted on 18-07-2014 22:16
|
|
Member Location: Padova - Italy Posts: 982 Joined: 01.06.12 |
Thank Reinoud, precious details! P.S.: I wonder what Loew would think about the so much red-leg Tolmerus arthriticus |
|
|
|
| Quaedfliegh |
Posted on 07-10-2015 12:54
|
|
Member Location: Tilburg Netherlands Posts: 2198 Joined: 18.05.10 |
I see your reply only now.....: ) The perfect problem: In Systema Dipterorum it is found under Epitriptus. In Fauna Europaea it is found under Machimus. Based on habitus the latter feels better.....Lehr in 1996 declared Epitriptus synonym with Tolmerus....so it should indeed be Tolmerus arthriticus.......yet nowhere is that to be found......still searching
Greetings, Reinoud Field guide to the robber flies of the Netherlands and Belgium: https://www.jeugdbondsuitgeverij.nl/product/field-guide-to-the-robberflies-of-the-netherlands-and-belgium/ https://www.nev.nl/diptera/ |
|
|
|
| Jump to Forum: |